ACMECTF Cup - Whats Next?

Go to http://acmectf.com for more info and file downloads!

[c0rn]

With this cup about to come to a completion, what's next?

Is there going to be another cup, or a bracket tournament?

[Targe+]

So is this tourney to be considered the first of many more to come?

I don't see why not.
"ACMECTF Fall Cup 2009" is already in the works.

With new teams and new players, playing new maps?

Absolutely!

After the Round Robin is over is there going to be playoffs?

Of course!
http://acmectf.com/cupfinals.html for a sneak peak of the double elimination playoffs.
(Brackets are final, but the maps/who chooses maps is still under investigation)

Can I grow a beard?

Wake answered that better than I ever could.

Source http://www.wormlair.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.0.html

[c0rn]

Super. Thanks for the obvious wake up call..

Next time, read thread titles. Got it.

[nameless]

c0rn evidently missed my sweet posting in Smack.

[Blackberry]

Wondering if we could get a skill rating for each player in tournament maps.  That way it might be easier to pick teams kind of fantasy football style.  It would be interesting to see and might (emphasis on might) make it easier to make balanced teams for the next tourney.  Plus, i'm sure worm would be thrilled!

[c0rn]

I could make some web based tool, if we knew how exactly we wanted to go about it... and if it would be used.

[alka]

Go for it.
But don't use a 1-10 skill rating as it will not work as seen in the past.
If it were RA/DM then it would work.
But you have to figure in not only skill levels, but also offense/defense.

No sense in having 2 equally skilled teams (by numbers) only to find out 1 team has 5 defensive players while the other has 3 defense and 2 offense. What's the point in having a strong defense team and only allowing 2 caps in 20 minutes when you can't get even 1 cap?

Lot's of variables in CTF to try and make teams using any sort of "rating system".

Let me know what you guys come up with and when sign ups will be held. 

[c0rn]

Keep the ideas comin, the more the better 

[Targe+]

Take all the people in the ladder, give them an assigned position (O or D) and then rate those players 1-10 or 1-100 or something. Then make sure that the "D" number for a team is 25 or lower and their "O" is 25 or lower (getting the 2 numbers as close to each other as possible, for all teams).

Max number for any team would be 50 (5x10) but mostly would fall around 35-40 maybe? You would just have to watch out for the players that are 9 on "O" and "D"

The other option is give each player 20 points to play with and rate them on both "O" and "D" and and each team has a spending cap (like hockey) so a team has 2 great players, the other 3 would be way sub-par.

IE Target - "O" - 7 "D" - 6 -> total = 13/20

I dunno

Talgo

[The Cleaner]

This will get more complicated than anyone really wants to accomodate-- if we let it happen.

There are various positions than just O or D.  Offense =  Boost.  Escort.  FC. 

There are varying D positions.  Main.  Outer.  Maybe Roam/PS acquisition.  Etc.

For instance,  My grappling on a 1-10 might be a 7 on a PL free day.  My Escorting is a 9-10 all day long, making me a much better offensive player than one would first expect.

On Defense, odds are my captain is sticking me main D and bringing me excel or amp and that's the end of that story.


It seems to me a GREAT player would be between 38-50, not simply 8-10.

[c0rn]

Who would be in charge or rating each player. If it was left to the player, I could see people just saying, oh, I'm a 10 all around..

[The Cleaner]

Who would be in charge or rating each player. If it was left to the player, I could see people just saying, oh, I'm a 10 all around..

Yellowfire is a 51/50.

[c0rn]

I kind of agree with what Cleaner says, there are tons of options that would need to be weighed.. although I do kind of like the 1-10 point system on multiple levels. So if there were 7 ratings, a user could be set to have a total of 70 points. Which brings me back to my previous question...

[Targe+]

Who would be in charge or rating each player. If it was left to the player, I could see people just saying, oh, I'm a 10 all around..

Would be nice if we could do this the way NCTFL was done, with all the captains on mIRC or Vent, having a list of players, and each captain picks a player untill they are all gone. Or the captains could try to rate players. Not really sure. I wouldn't be a good judge cause I haven't played much in the last 2 years

[Blackberry]

I was more talking about the stats page worm has in place for the pub but make it for the tournament.

I think it would change the people around a lot since everybody would be playing vs quality players in tournament settings.  High rated players might not be so highly rated in a tournament stats page since we'd all have similar times played.

This isn't perfect but could be a valuable way to rate players for the next tournament since it's based off of stats in the current tournament.

You also lose any bias people feel toward any given player.

[Targe+]

Stats can be easily manipulated though. Good example is the other night I was playing with Wake, who was running Offense. He has by far the least amount of points. And Lydia is #2 on the stats ATM

[The Cleaner]

Stats could be narrowed down to 5 categories per player, each with a maximum weight of 10 points.

For instance, here is "player."

Escort   8

Main D  4

Outer D  5

Boost 10

FC  9

He's an "offense" guy.  His total score is 36/50.



His teammate is "player2"

Escort 6

Main D  9

Outer D 8

Boost 7

FC 6

he is also rated a 36/50.

[The Cleaner]

Heck, You could even combine Main & Outer D, make 4 categories, 40 points max per player but a nice even 200 total per team.

[Targe+]

Example

30 players (6 teams of 5)
Total for all players -> 312/600 (20 per player)
Max per team -> 53-54 "points"

[The Cleaner]

Which brings me back to my previous question...

Easy.  First we determine who's interested in playing, then set up a spreadsheet with drop down menus totaling 1-10 for each category per player.  Drop down menus may be overkill, maybe just cells where the rating player would enter a value of 1-10.

We then poll the community to answer honestly on a 1-10 per category.  You take the average of that, which, using excel, could be done over a 24 hour window, but would probably be best to leave up for a week or more to get maximum feedback.

For instance:

If 8 people rated Legend, it may look as follows:

FC   8, 9, 7, 8, 8, 7, 6, 9

Defense  7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 4, 9, 10

Escort  9, 9, 6, 4, 6, 10, 7, 8

Boost  10, 7, 8, 1, 3, 10, 9, 8

he is rated as:

FC:  7.75, round up to 8

Defense:  7.5, round up to 8

Escort:  7.375,  Round down to 7

Boost:  7

Legend's value, as rated by his peers is =AVERAGE(B12:B16) 30 of 40, or something similar.



We could limit teams to players totaling 150 or 160 out of 200, thus limiting the potential for a 200 ranked team to go against a 125 team.  Obviously performance could be drastically different than ratings may indicate, as in the case of the technicians, for example, but this also eliminates some bias because it would, HOPEFULLY, be rated honestly and fairly.

edit:  We would also encourage players to rate CURRENT level of play.  That way if crow decides to come back he's not instantly a 35/40, but hopefully a more realistic 28/40 or something of the like.  Having a numerical static for each player would also more fairly allow a sub to play in that person's place.  If I'm rated at a 32, and my proposed sub, let's say Cartman is a 22, obviously that wouldn't be an appropriate fill, but if my proposed sub is Cyanide at a 33 or 31, that would make much more sense.

[Targe+]

The problem is using the majority of acmectf players/posters to rate people. Sometimes people will rate low or high to be asses (lol h0ps is a 1 lol).

The other problem is that many people don't honestly know how other people play. I didn't even know who soft was untill a month or two ago

[The Cleaner]

The problem is using the majority of acmectf players/posters to rate people. Sometimes people will rate low or high to be asses (lol h0ps is a 1 lol).

The other problem is that many people don't honestly know how other people play. I didn't even know who soft was untill a month or two ago

This is how we ended up with Obama as president, but unfortunately there's no way to stop it from happening.

[The Cleaner]

Also, any ratings that are obviously fudged, i.e. cake is rated 2's across the board, would be deleted because we would be able to see them.

Fortunately for us, MOST people who come on and play are intelligent, mature adults despite in-game behavior.


My idea is make a spreadsheet with 50 tabs, and unlock ONLY the cells where input is needed.

i.e. I can fill out my own tab to indicate interest, thus taking the burden off the spreadsheet master.  I rename the tab "Cleaner" & input my name in the spot cleverly marked "name," and the people rating me can only input numbers in the unlocked cells.  That way I/we can't modify anything critical, only admins would have the password to access said changes.  The password, by the way, is "getserious."

[alka]

The other problem is that many people don't honestly know how other people play. I didn't even know who soft was untill a month or two ago

That's why I nominated myself to do this.
I have specced/played with/played against everyone who signed up.

There was no guessing or assuming who should go where.

That's why any rating system will always be inferior to the system I used.... experience.

Not trying to deter anyone, as I'm interested in what formulas you guys come up with to determine teams. 

[Blackberry]

Stats can be easily manipulated though. Good example is the other night I was playing with Wake, who was running Offense. He has by far the least amount of points. And Lydia is #2 on the stats ATM

Right, but I was thinking using the stats formula on the tournament stats, not on pub stats.

Just an idea since it's a system that I hope would be easier to put in place than voting or whatnot.

[angry]

Right, but I was thinking using the stats formula on the tournament stats, not on pub stats.

Just an idea since it's a system that I hope would be easier to put in place than voting or whatnot.

Using tournament stats would be a lot harder than voting, considering there's no stat tracking on any of the match servers.

As for bias in voting, the solution to that is drop the highest and lowest scores... so maybe if ten people vote on a player, only the middle eight or six rankings are included.

I'm a semi-beast with PHP, I could probably write something.  Also, I'm heavily likely to not participate in the next Cup, so I could be an impartial judge, though I'd need alka's help because I don't know all the players.

The problem is using the majority of acmectf players/posters to rate people. Sometimes people will rate low or high to be asses (lol h0ps is a 1 lol).

The other problem is that many people don't honestly know how other people play. I didn't even know who soft was untill a month or two ago

This is how we ended up with Obama as president, but unfortunately there's no way to stop it from happening.

ROFL @ Cleaner +applaud

[WORM]

As far as stats for match servers....

1) yes, i could do that

2) match servers are open to anyone to use for organized matches

3) match servers are also open to anyone to use for testing configs, running caps, general settings testing, etc

4) running stats on match servers would mix #2 & #3 so the results would be less than useful

5) it would take a LOT of time and work to sift thru log files to separate #2 and #3 above, as it isn't easily parsed

6) therefore, no..i won't do stats for match servers

[c0rn]

That's why any rating system will always be inferior to the system I used.... experience.

I completely agree after some further thought. I was just trying to think of a way of making this easier on alka, or whoever decides to help with the cup. We still have 5 matches that need to be played in the cup, so maybe we finish that before we start thinking of what we need to do for the next one?

The list goes as follows:

Mutants vs Beserkers - lfctf4 (quad)
Beserkers vs Enforcers - as2m7
Beserkers vs Enforcers - lfctf9
Gladiators vs Technicians - as2m7
Gladiators vs Technicians - lfctf9

(as of 09/15/2009 @ 12:40PM EST - http://acmectf.com/cup.html)

[alka]

Mutants vs Beserkers - lfctf4 (quad)
Beserkers vs Enforcers - as2m7
Beserkers vs Enforcers - lfctf9
Gladiators vs Technicians - as2m7
Gladiators vs Technicians - lfctf9
(as of 09/15/2009 @ 12:40PM EST - http://acmectf.com/cup.html)

Gladiators vs Technicians this Saturday. Not 100% sure of the time.
Last I heard it's at 9pm.. but simmeth said he can play if it's a little earlier.
We shall see.

[Blackberry]

That's why any rating system will always be inferior to the system I used.... experience.

I completely agree after some further thought. I was just trying to think of a way of making this easier on alka, or whoever decides to help with the cup.

bingo.

As far as what's next for the cups, i got an idea:

http://www.kongregate.com/games/jmtb02/elephant-rave

[c0rn]

http://www.kongregate.com/games/jmtb02/elephant-rave

And there goes all of my productivity for today.

[alka]

and..
The biggest hurdle in the cup doesn't seem to be the teams, but scheduling.
There is an 8 hour difference between west coasters and euros, and we have both playing in cup.
One thing that will be learned from this is the most popular times matches are played.
And looking at the past couple of months it seems that 8-10pm EST is the most popular time frame.
The "flex schedule" seemed to work out fairly decent but it put a lot of time between matches. Next cup either we'll:
a. Make a set time for matches. (days to be determined) or..
b. Keep the flex schedule but add a side note that you have 7 days to play your next match after your current match has completed. or..
c. Get $lasher to schedule all matches for us.

[c0rn]

a. Make a set time for matches. (days to be determined) or..
b. Keep the flex schedule but add a side note that you have 7 days to play your next match after your current match has completed. or..
c. Get $lasher to schedule all matches for us.

I suggest d. all of the above.

[Fors]

Do I smell acme OGL fighting to be born? What would we name the little creature if it came about...Who would be the captin steering the ship..Worm?

[The Cleaner]

It would be called "PGL."  Powerhouse Gaming League, tbh.

[alka]

Several people have offered advice, and their time, in the next one.. not only in this thread but also in PM and IRC.

It's probably not a good time to get the next one going with not only the holidays coming up, but also the launch of l4d2.

But rest assured, the next one is on the horizon and it will be bigger and better.. bigger than the last one, bigger than milton, even bigger than Oprah.

Stay tuned.....

[stan]

lookin forward to it alk dog..

[h0ps]

Several people have offered advice, and their time, in the next one.. not only in this thread but also in PM and IRC.

It's probably not a good time to get the next one going with not only the holidays coming up, but also the launch of l4d2.

But rest assured, the next one is on the horizon and it will be bigger and better.. bigger than the last one, bigger than milton, even bigger than Oprah.

Stay tuned.....

haha


oprah...shes fat shes thin, shes fat shes thin i mean pick a body and go with it!

[Legend]

Several people have offered advice, and their time, in the next one.. not only in this thread but also in PM and IRC.

It's probably not a good time to get the next one going with not only the holidays coming up, but also the launch of l4d2.

But rest assured, the next one is on the horizon and it will be bigger and better.. bigger than the last one, bigger than milton, even bigger than Oprah.

Stay tuned.....

haha


oprah...shes fat shes thin, shes fat shes thin i mean pick a body and go with it!

oprah has never been thin, just figured i'd throw that out there

[h0ps]

Several people have offered advice, and their time, in the next one.. not only in this thread but also in PM and IRC.

It's probably not a good time to get the next one going with not only the holidays coming up, but also the launch of l4d2.

But rest assured, the next one is on the horizon and it will be bigger and better.. bigger than the last one, bigger than milton, even bigger than Oprah.

Stay tuned.....

haha


oprah...shes fat shes thin, shes fat shes thin i mean pick a body and go with it!

oprah has never been thin, just figured i'd throw that out there

lol

[Targe+]

For some reason I thought that was Michael Jackson for a second....

[<[SLY]>]

Several people have offered advice, and their time, in the next one.. not only in this thread but also in PM and IRC.

It's probably not a good time to get the next one going with not only the holidays coming up, but also the launch of l4d2.

But rest assured, the next one is on the horizon and it will be bigger and better.. bigger than the last one, bigger than milton, even bigger than Oprah.

Stay tuned.....

haha


oprah...shes fat shes thin, shes fat shes thin i mean pick a body and go with it!

oprah has never been thin, just figured i'd throw that out there

[Wake]

Like <[SLY]> knows anything about black people...

[Legend]

Several people have offered advice, and their time, in the next one.. not only in this thread but also in PM and IRC.

It's probably not a good time to get the next one going with not only the holidays coming up, but also the launch of l4d2.

But rest assured, the next one is on the horizon and it will be bigger and better.. bigger than the last one, bigger than milton, even bigger than Oprah.

Stay tuned.....

haha


oprah...shes fat shes thin, shes fat shes thin i mean pick a body and go with it!

oprah has never been thin, just figured i'd throw that out there

photoshop! and a gurdle

[<[SLY]>]

Like <[SLY]> knows anything about black people...

oookay...what does knowing Oprah used to be skinny have to do with her race?

[Wake]

Obviously nothing. You're too easy.